Posts by Band on the Run

26

Hierarchical or Congregational?

by TD in

jw
friends

congregational polity is a system of church governence where each congregation is ecclesiastically autonomous.

many protestant churches are organized this way and one of its advantages is that it protects the parent organization(s) from legal actions originating at the congregational level.

one of it's disadvantages is that a minister in one congregation does not hold that same status in other congregations.

Band on the Run

It is exciting for me to converse with someone who has researched the legal issues and case law. Despite my keen interest, I've found by hard practice that I must walk away from JW stuff. It agitates me no end. If I can't be functional in my life, it is better to let matters drop. I haven't read the case law, nor have I seen deeds. My interest soars but my anxiety follows suit. Being a Witness was like being one of the characters in Sartre's No Exit.

The English charitable trust concept is interesting. I was only a tween when I left when my father died. The brothers were always coming to my father for loans for the KH. I don't believe they were ever repaid. We were the only property owners in the congregation. I just about starved. We also supported teenagers on welfare who had a wardrobe out of Seventeen mag while I was in rags. Without reading the cases and documents, it strikes me that their lawyers are not thick. It is congregational when it suits them and hierarchical when it suits them. It is telling that no one has asserted it has a congregational feeling. Another factor that confuses me when comparing to other churches' structures is that my local KH was populated by a housing project crowd. The Witnesses seemed to endorse welfare as a way of life. I am disabled currently (I was and now I am trying to get back on my feet in tis economy). They always discussed the joys of being disabled for the opportunities for field service. These were not people with any substantial financial or business acumen. As people go, they were a mixture of commendable and hypocritical.

I'm waiting for a payment to start my Lexis account again. Search terms would be helpful for me. It truly is a coup for me to read this thread. I look forward to skimming the cases. I'm wondering if someone would care enough to write a legal memo concerning this and post it. The law review articles that could be published about this are exciting. A good opportunity to publish more.

40

Continuity of the Bible - Start to Finish

by tyu in

i was asked in a previous topic whether i thought the bible had continuity in its thought/teaching from start to finish, from old to new testament.

you can argue from specific passages taken apart and out of context that the bible contradicts itself, but, all in all, there is one message-that of love, a father's love.

the bible is the story of a father who creates a family (beginning with adam and eve), but they break their bond with him.

Band on the Run

Why forbid knowledge of all things? It isn't some arbitrary thing he forbid. The Fall of humankind is a very high price to pay for the alleged misjudgment of someone who may have been still a Neanderthal. Genensis taken literally is nonsensical. What would humans be without gnosis? I don't see how they are human without it. Gnosis seems to be an evolutionary adaptation, marking homo sapiens from prior races.

26

Hierarchical or Congregational?

by TD in

jw
friends

congregational polity is a system of church governence where each congregation is ecclesiastically autonomous.

many protestant churches are organized this way and one of its advantages is that it protects the parent organization(s) from legal actions originating at the congregational level.

one of it's disadvantages is that a minister in one congregation does not hold that same status in other congregations.

Band on the Run

I don't even know who holds title to KH land. If the local KH holds title, how are disputes handled when a congregation splinters from the Society? How does The Society certify or whatever the appropriate word is that a local congregation is a Jehovah's Witness congregation.

The legal issues have presented themselves in the American Episcopal Church. The main body support ordination of gays and even appt of gay bishops. A few conservative parishes have broke away. Normally, the main group can claim ownership to the land. The same situation happened when women were first ordained.

It is striking how few Witnesses seem to know the legal and organizational structure of the Society. Somehow I can't imagine if I telephoned Bethel tomorrow, I would receive ready answers. Maybe I am wrong. Does anyone know if a cohesive legal strategy was outlined or did things just evolve? I'm curious as to what kind of practice Rutherford had. Their Biblical interpretation strikes me as legallistic with all the very detailed statements.

I'm also curious about the financing of literature and assembly/convention costs. Can a local congregation ask for an audit? When I would read the Witness statements concerning their legal status, it always struck me that the structure was more on paper to get tax exemptions than in reality. I simply don't know. Yes, I could check archives but I'm suffering a bout of laziness.

17

The longest prayer ever done scenario

by asilentone in

what if a deaf brother sign the longest prayer ever recorded like one hour or two hours, do you think the audience will disappear before he signs amen?

.

Band on the Run

I would swear that the brothers went on for half an hour to forty-five minutes. Maybe it is the time is relative and I so much wanted release from the boredom and cultiness.

Obviously timing it would have been funny but I also would have been executed by my family. The entire family used to talk about the length of prayers. Freddie Franz was one thing but the local moron was another.

My father was a former Bethelite who forged his own way w/o disfellowshipping. He knew massive amounts of Witness stuff. This sister was present and thought he was d'f'd or not active. She actually placed a hanky on her head! I wanted to knock her off her chair. It was the most tangible insult of all of them. He could go chat up Knorr and Franz, and all the factory people but he couldn't tell her what to do with her hanky. It is all right. One of my epiphanies occurred when a prof explained Son of God (any male) vs. son of man (messianic). She pointed out all the Sons of God in Israel but not one single daughter. I said F....you. You want no daughters of Israel, I don't worship male gods. And how they make him male. I became interested in surrounding goddess worship.

20

David from Ozzie and Harriet passes away -- ties to JW's?

by FatFreek 2005 in

david nelson passed away today.. many years ago (50's and 60's) i'd heard that the family had some ties to jw's in some fashion.

any truth to that one?.

len .

Band on the Run

I recently read about them in wikipedia without remembering a mention. If there were one, I believe I'd remember.

I was one of the girls drooling over Ricky but David had gravitas and poise. Ricky did numbskull things; David did not.

It is sad for me.

26

Hierarchical or Congregational?

by TD in

jw
friends

congregational polity is a system of church governence where each congregation is ecclesiastically autonomous.

many protestant churches are organized this way and one of its advantages is that it protects the parent organization(s) from legal actions originating at the congregational level.

one of it's disadvantages is that a minister in one congregation does not hold that same status in other congregations.

Band on the Run

Im an American lawyer who does not know the answer definitively. I noted that the Society distances itself legally from local KH as to not have liability. If someone goofs up, they can say it was an errant church. The Society would not accept liability for slips and falls or oher tortious acts, IMO. It is interesting question. Thought wise, JWs are very, very hierachical. A bishop has far more latitutde than anyone actor outside of the GB would have.

There can easily be a divergence between the thought control, legitimacy acquired and the legal posturings. It is sad. I'm a bit of an expert on American Establishment law, which purportedly separate church from state but is more complicated. While I was doing my own private civl rights research, I found an article written by a female lawyer for the Society. It could have been utterly fascinating and uplifting. The topic was how Jehovah's Witnesses fared under persecution in Japan before and during WWII. Not a single example was given of an individual Witness. It was all about the distant Rutherford in Brooklyn. I assume Brooklyn was very scary compared to Tokyo or Osaka. It revolted me. The Catholic Church, so villified by the Witnesses, would report the cases of the individuals and the Pope.

Of course, they have every right to conduct their legal business as they see fit. I note it precisely because they claim they are so different. Those studies of hierarchy as opposed to congregational seem to come from an anthropoligical type text. The Witnesses are sui generis. They defy categories.

27

Was this ever a good religion to be in?

by whatistruth in

where sincerity, mercy, love predominated the witnesses at one time?

or has it always been like it is today, corrupt, hypocritical, abuse of power, unloving?

just curious if it started out with good intentions and then like anything else as time goes on and it becomes too big for unqualified people to handle it, it all goes bad..

Band on the Run

My mom's family has been associated SINCE the Bible Students day. Those publications truly freaked me but I was born much later. Old children's books freak me, too. She said dissent was tolerated. There was hardly any repression from Brooklyn or Pittsburgh. Most of the mind control stuff started with Rutherford. She had JW Christmases. I had tremendous loneliness. She truly felt it was fundamentalluy better. The woman hating intensified under Rutherford. This was an adult-child conversation. I found my great uncles, with occult symbols and pyramids. I was utterly shocked. She never believed in her heart so my childhood was the Soceity teaches this but don't be zealous b/c this happened to me or we know this and other witnesses, don't/

We definitely had an air of superiority. I knew the family would win any showdowns with local brothers. Once a Witness sister was snippy about 1975, which was supposed to be guaarded. I asked her if she would mined while I called Bethel for verification. We kew the big shots on a first name basis. Only high ranking brothers at brother were good for marriages and funerals.

It is not a scholarly viewpoint. Just word of mouth.... I never, ever found it fun, unless perhaps a smidgeon of fun for easy access to Bethel. When I was young, all I wanted to do was type at Bethel. I started attending Bethel mtgs at conventions when I was seven years too young to apply. Oh, besides the big shots, both my parents expressly forbid me to have anything with the amoral, wild crowd at Bethel. We always sat around the kitchen table with more distant relatives, hearing Bethel stories.

52

Tried to end my "bible" study, ended up agreeing to go to the Kingdom Hall instead!!!

by KristiKay in

my jw came over yesterday with a video she wanted to show me, i forget what it was called but it was about the history of the watchtower.normaly i don't have a problem discussing the bible with her, but i just could't sit through this bs video.

i already know the history of the watchtower,.

and it certianly isn't what this video was going to portray.

Band on the Run

Id prioritize my goals. Going to the Kingdom Hall is such a major step along the road to being assimilated. You can have no idea, how much. Say you changed your mind politely. You owe her no obligation. They claim the studies are free. And after all, are you studying? or conforming to some fantasy about a friendship you want with her? Why enter the lion's den? People here tell me intelligence and knowledge are not why people get into cults. This is a dangerous situation. You don't believe the Witness teachings. Rather, you seek out alternative sites.

Better you save yourself than lose yourself converting her. If you can convert her, fine. You never know something she rejects now may interact with something else and result in her leaving later.

It is like the airline instructions. Save yourself, then save your children. Otherwise, you both go down.

15

How Would Jesus Announce HIs Second Coming to the Watchtower

by Band on the Run in

someone wrote something on another thread that i find puzzling.

how would jesus communicate with them?

do they hear an actual voice?

Band on the Run

I had a poster as a teen of a hippie bored in a middle class church. Wearing hippie attire, including sandals, he sits in the front row of a very 50s, Leave it to Beaver, church. He is so bored, he dozes on the shouler of the man sitting next to him. It was my statement against organized religion in general. I had far better posters but I hung it for years anyway.

One day the poster came up in family conversation. I called it my hippie in church poster. My mother shrieked in laughter, don't you realize that is Jesus? No I did not realize it. Not believing her I ran upstairs, to look at the poster more carefully to prove it was some dude from Greenwich Village or Central Park's Bethsaida Fountain. We always ran into happenings back then. Close observation led me to realize it was Jesus. Somehow I did not want Jesus seeing where I changed clothes and such. It was torn down promptly.

The same occurred with my grape boycott poster supporting the migrant workers led by Cesar Chavez. Since we lived on the East, they were hard to find here. It was a nice illustration of a bunch of grapes with boycott language. I had a wallet sized pledge in my purse. Since I never bought groceries, I was hardly a major force in the boycott. It was one of my best. After it was up for one year, I looked at it and my visual sight lines changed. There was a skull lurking in the grapes! It came off the wall so quickly. My brother took it, gladly, even with the skull.

30

What is the WTS take on Speaking in Tongues?

by Lion Cask in

this is a fairly worldly view, for those who haven't seen it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3be9wcawim.

Band on the Run

DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! In my day at least. Paul's acknowledges they are a fruit of the spirit but not very useful. He expressly states they are not demonic. If I recall, correctly, speaking in tongues was only valid for the apostolic generation then God decided he would issue an edict that one could not speak in tongues. How people still do so is a matter for physicists since God has barred it.

There was a pentecostal church in my neighborhood, overly popular iwth hs friends. I was so terrifieid when it started happening during a service I attended. My, I prayed with all my heart to be forgiven so demons would not jump on me. I ran out of the church. A friend was insulted. The pastor's son was considered a catch, even in the days of Paul McCartney, a local catch. Girls flocked to the church.

I can't take it to this day. My fear of demons was securely planted by the Society. I feared demons more than Armageddon. They said if you were faithful, the demons would trip you on the sidewalk in service walk. Being unfaithful meant the demons would think they were welcome in your body. I was a young teen belieivng all of us this stuff. I had some doubts when the WT or Awake reported a demon materialzing in some woman's bed/ The overt sexuality scare was too much for my intellect.

It is so laughable today. If I tell friends how I would not sleep, searching my bedroom for demons (and my sister, too, I later found out), it is ha, ha. The reality is I was terrorized. IMO, God's creation is good. There are such awe-inspring events to ponder, such as creation, love, grace, the social gospel. Focus on this fringe, a fringe that has obvious sexual connotations, is bizarre. The laugh about the Catholics with relics and visions but they are worse IMO.